Maybe that’s why the former wine guy at Circa has already left.

Where are you shopping? Veuve Clicquot retails for $57.99 at Joe’s, Kimbrough & Great Wines. Clicquot has become a commodity, a brand that everyone knows. It is not even that good of a Champagne (obviously my opinion). It is the restaurant’s choice to price it how they wish, just as it is the consumer’s choice not to purchase it.

I’m afraid John Bragg’s argument doesn’t make any sort of sense to me. You’re suggesting that every other restaurant in town is taking a loss or getting special pricing?

Assuming that the restaurant pays the retail price (which doesn’t make sense) and that the $57.99 quote is more representative of the current retail price, and that there’s the taxes on a $130 bottle add up to $31.53, there’s still a forty dollar markup, basically two-thirds of the retail price.

The long list of factors which influence pricing really don’t seem to apply here either. How is seasonality a factor in the pricing of champagne?

I Don’t know if you do agree but the cost is different and changes are made. Do me a favor buy barrel of oil and compare the price of gas or maybe the mark up of produce. If you are dinning at a restaurant, these prices are going to affect the above. This is why prices are higher and
they are also because people are not supporting the people, community, and enviroment arond them.

Allie, I mentioned in my post that restaurants do not pay the retail price for wine, they pay wholesale. And while, as John Bragg points out, many factors enter into the price shown for a wine or champagne on a wine list, the fact remains that the wholesale price for Veuve Clicquot Yellow Label in Memphis is $34. Every restaurant starts from that point, adds the appropriate taxes (which in Tennessee are steep) and goes on from there to charge what they think is the right price for their restaurants. The fact that, as can be seen in my post, a $60 difference separates the unusually generous price at Umai from the price at Circa, which is almost four times wholesale, represents what I think is an almost ludicrous spread. Sure, as James says, who’s to say what an obscene price is? Restaurants are free to set whatever price they want to on anything they sell. But must every business be run on the principle of “let the buyer beware”?
Michael, I was quoted national average prices for VCYL found on the Internet. Prices for wine and champagne locally do tend to be higher than the national averages. I apoligize for not making that clear.
And I know that I’m curious to find out, and others probably are too, now that Randy has left Circa, who will be managing the restaurant and its innovative wine list. Perhaps John Bragg will come back and tell us.

JB, buddy they have been beating you up to long on here so let me try to help you out. I broker wine deals everyday. Price and season does matter. Here is a little secret, like everything else not everybody pays the same. Even wholesale! Wine buying, is like politics, just the same as most industries in the United States. We will not see a case break on high end champagne until March.
Umai is making less than $12 per bottle. That means they are better off selling beer,but here are some factors to think about.
Umai is on Madison in an older building next to Quick Check. He gets some street traffic and not much. The household income is average at best. Ken is using the pricing of his wines as a tool to drive people in to try his food. He believes in his product and i am sure he feels if he get get them in once, he will build a loyal base. Now I do not know what his overhead is but in that structure, it is lets say average. His place is somewhere you can have a nice dinner several time a week without filing bankruptcy, but I would not take my pops the for his 60th birthday.

Remember this word OVERHEAD!

Now JB went downtown. In my opinion he built out one of the best looking places Memphis has seen. Again I do not know what his lease is but I am glad I dont have to pay it! When you sip your champagne at circa, you watch the trolly go by. People lounge at the bar, The music plays softly, You getthe picture. Ummm Is the settings different, very. Would you eat at Circa 4 time a week probaly not, unless you make six figs. Would I get my redneck dad off the couch and let him drink Bud from the bottle on his 60th birthday at circa. Yes. You see Jb uses a ton of things Ken does not. The types of table cloths, dinner napkins, the amount of labor………..i can go on and on.
Now lets talk buying power. I went to Houstons to meet a friend who thinks that place is great. He is an idiot but hey I love him anyway. I look at the list and see Etude pinot noir for $59 per bottle!!!!! I dont know how they do it but I am pretty sure it has something to do with the amount of wine they purchase as a chain. It must be on there core list. Put it this way I tink I pay $33 and some change for it. So sometime larger companies can out buy us small folks.

People are different. Fred said he thought French Laundry was worth it. I though it was very good……..I would not go back. I spent the same money at Alenia and can not wait to go back. People say we are expensive. I believe we put out a great experiance. Is it for everybody no. Is it for my loyal base that keeps my doors open and wholesalers at my door for our business. Yes
My loyals know that I run a nightly wine bargain. the servers do not tell you. Once you come in for a while you figure it out. Last night we sold Opus One 2004 for $200 a bottle. Is that expensive?
Setting, company, decor, service, we pay for all of these thing. You get what you pay for. And if it is expensive to you, you do not have to buy it.

JB, I am sure you do not need any help with the wine list, but if you every want to drink a couple bottles and talk about it let me know.

Chris Henderson
GM Equestria

Chris Henderson is a gentleman.

Pete, I’m going to take a stand for Fredric here on Circa. A few months ago he reviewed the restaurant and I believe everyone expected it (the review) to be better than it was. He knew that was the case and therefore wrote about it on the blog, offering a more in-depth explanation than the printed review allowed. The post inspired many responses, some in agreement with him and others defending the Circa and John Bragg–it got a bit heated. So I’m guessing this is what you’re talking about when you say we’ve been beating up on Circa, but I have no idea what you’re talking about regarding Encore or Majestic. I can’t think of a negative word either of us has said about them (Fredric, correct me if I’m wrong).

John, kudos on the Wednesday night wine flights in general (I wish more restaurants offered them) and in particular for making Veuve Clicquot available in December.

James: I’ve never doubted that Chris Henderson is a gentleman. I know that he manages Equestria with style and grace, and he provided some important insights to this post about restaurant wines lists and the factors that go into pricing.

Pete: Say what? I mentioned once in a response to a post last week that our last meal at Encore wasn’t very good (”sadly indifferent”). That’s hardly “beating up” the place “with pointed regularity.” Same for The Majestic. I reviewed the place and gave it a mainly positive two stars in June 2006; other than that, I’ve never mentioned the restaurant. Again, that’s hardly “beating up” the place “with pointed regularity.” Giving Spinidini two stars and a half stars isn’t “having it in” for the restaurant; that’s a star rating many restaurants would love to earn. The Equestria review was far from “unfair.” Restaurant reviewers are allowed by The CA to go to a restaurant twice at company expense; at Equestria we had mostly excellent fare and then two dishes that simply didn’t make sense, either in conception or execution. Coming from the same chef and kitchen, that constitutes inconsistency.

Frankly, I don’t care if a restaurant is hip and groovy or staid and sedate. What I want is thoughtful and well-prepared food coupled with thoughtful and efficient service in whatever the physical setting or context, whether it’s a corner grocery store or a white-table restaurant, and I want all of this accomplished with consistencey and lack of pretension in the ideas, in the effort and in the prices, and that means the prices for the food and the wine. I believe that consumers expect the same qualities in restaurants.

As far as Circa is concerned, I’m on record as admiring the wine program there and its approach to selling wine. I hope that the program will continue in the absence of the person who created it, and it sounds, from what John said, that it will. There are, as John and Chris pointed out above, MANY factors that go into the pricing of a wine list, and as John mentioned to me in a telephone message this weekend, a wine list needs to be examined completely for a full evaluation; obviously other wines on the Circa list are priced at attractive levels. But the point of this post was not to assess the full wine lists of the restaurants mentioned; it was to point out for consumers the huge difference between the low price and the high price for one popular item, the Veuve Clicquot Yellow Label Brut. It’s telling to me that Felicia Suzanne’s, also on Main Street, also on the trolley line, also in a large space in a restored historic building, manages to sell VCYL for $85; is rent so much cheaper north of Union? The point, then, of this post is that diners — who are often spending wads of dough on dinner in restaurants that need to build a base of returning patrons –need to know these factors in order to make informed decisions.

That should read “it costs a coffee plantation a small fortune to become fair trade certified”.

This is what I get for not having my coffee right now

What about the remainder of the content on each of the highlighted restaurants wine lists? Shouldn’t that be more telling than what they price a commodity such as a branded Champagne? Diners are looking for something unique when they choose a restaurant, that includes the food & the wine. When dining out Downtown I used to see the same wines repeated on every restaurant’s list, including a certain Champagne. Now there is actually some uniqueness throughout. The Majestic Grille’s new wine list is a perfect example of that. It is unique, interesting, adventuresome, full of delicious wines & value-oriented (no matter what you think the price of Clicquot says about it, try looking at the rest of the list). Speaking of value, their “Sunday Suppers” special is $60 for 4 people. That is the epitome of value for the level of food & service you receive. That leaves 4 people plenty of money to spend on a good bottle of wine.

Olive garden sells Boone’s farm for a fair price.

What a ludicrous post.

Must be nice to have time to worry about the price of champagne when gas is well over $3 a gallon, foreclosures are on the rise and the country is in an endless war with over 3000 young Americans dead and no champagne toasts in sight.

Marie Antoinette would be proud.

James,

One might ask why you are wasting your time posting on a food and wine blog when there are such weighty issues of the world that on which you, no doubt, have all the answers.

Viva la capitalism!

good riddance to bad rubbish and if you must try to speak/spell in other languages jamie boyo, use spell check in the future. I hope you really are gone and will not respond to this missive. foodies need no clutter as we already are consumed with our passion. also, why does no one mention the great tasting menu on Sunday at JB’s place? 45 smackers for WINE and FOOD is wonderful. Not since Ben’s has it been so good.

I work at a liquor store and know what wine/champagne costs. My wife asks me to not even look at the wine lists at restaurants becasue she knows I will start shaking my head, naming the price of certain bottles and becoming frustrated. I saw one recently where one of my “local favorite” restaurants was charging the same price for “wine by the glass” that it costs to by that bottle at my store. More restaurants should offer customers a choice to bring wine in to help or maybe the fact that some people are stupid enough to pay these prices drives there desire for greed.

Fred Koeppel has been a food and wine critic for many years and knows his stuff. There is no excuse for that kind of markup on VC. It is unconscionable at best and greedy at worst. Period. I have a very good friend who’s an international wine critic (Robin Garr of wineloverspage.com), and he’s mentioned the markups to me while shaking his head after dining at some fine establishments. It’s a ripoff!

I go to Europe about once a week (business), and over there wine is considered part of a meal and priced accordingly and fairly. There is a small markup (nobody begrudges a restaurateur a profit!), but let’s get real here.

KKellis………..To cellar wine in a restaurant means to keep it in inventory. Only a handful of places in Memphis have a cellar or a Eurocave to properly keep wine ( I have both ). Champagne does not sell very quickly in Memphis people. We are not a large market. To keep $1,000 in inventory tied up in champagne means a larger mark up for some places because it ties up money that can be spent elsewhere. These are places with larger overhead that try to provide a nicer setting to drink your champgne. So if you want to pay $70 for Yellow label and stare across the street watching bums and frat boys, go ahead. i hope you have insurance on your car.

Hey, thanks for the plug, K.K.! You’re the best!

A couple of clarifications, though.

1) Actually, I don’t object to a markup that approximates twice retail. Like it or not, it’s the industry standard. It’s when an eatery goes beyond that point that I get cranky … and Fred’s post does a great job of shining a spotlight on the variations. A wonderful concept. I hope he doesn’t mind if I steal it for Louisville.

2) You’re lucky to have some great, modest eateries in your weekly destination that treat wine as part of a meal. Sadly, though, it’s not as common in Europe as you think. As you know, I travel to Italy and France often on wine-and-food business, and it’s true that those happy Latins - in Italy especially - make it easy to enjoy wine with a meal. But by and large, markups in Northern Europe and the UK - especially at “finer” restaurants - can be as heavy as in the US.

Fred got it right: Compare prices. Be a smart consumer. If you’re really compulsive, memorize the prices of three or four popular wines (Beringer White Zin, Duboeuf Beaujolais, Jadot Bourgogne, Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay), and check them against the wine list when you go out to dine. If they’re marking up unfairly - significantly more than twice what you’d pay at Buster’s … then run away. Or have a beer or an iced tea. Just don’t start thinking about how much money went into making that $1.50 glass of tea …

Wow Chris. Your need to bash a decent midtown restaurant while flaunting your own wares has given me reason to never worry about traveling to that area of Germantown for diner. Appreciate your help.

well, let’s say this: The restaurant business is tough, time-consuming, nearly thankless and clearly not intended for the faint-of-heart. As Chris Henderson has pointed out eloquently, it’s also a complicated and expensive business, especially at the (ill-defined) fine-dining level, with a thousand details that need to be dealt with every day. The problem is that when the details are not dealt with, many aspects about the meal, the service and the overall experience suffer. And that’s when patrons decide not to return. But many things are relative. We know that Chris is referring to Umai (bums, frat boys, etc) in his response, but you know, the food at Umai is great, and if that corner on Madison is, um, more picturesque than some people can handle, so be it. I wrote years aso that I would rather be served a great meal by a slattern in a quonset hut than a mediocre meal by a footman in a palace, and I still believe that. (0f course a great meal in a palace is something else.)
Every restaurant owner, manager, chef or whatever has to make the decisions about food and wine prices that fit the type of establishment in question (and balances the expense of running the place), but there are limits; common sense and compassion should play a part in these decisions.
Robin and KK, welcome to the whining and dining blog; thanks for joining in. Robin, thanks for the comments; feel free to use the champagne (or whatever) price comparison. and if you want to take a look at my personal wine blog and website, shoot me an email and I’ll send you the links.

Allie…………….I drove the distance to Target after reading your post and it is .76 miles away. Since it is to the west we are in front of Target. There are no weeds because we have a landscape crew that works twice a week. In fact we are in an area of Shelby county that is being developed the most. I tell you what, since I am a gentleman, come out for yourself and take a look at what we are doing. I will treat you…………KK thank you and when you do come to Equestria I will treat you to a bottle of champagne as well, but be forewarned I do not serve VCYL. Fred , never said Umai was bad. I live in Midtown. I have eaten there no less than 6 or 7 times. I do not spend my money at chain restaurants. I have always stayed local and always will. I do not like the location, and I think Ken would have been a little more successful if he chose a different location. That is my opinion and means nothing. If a meal is expensive it is really up to who pays for it. No one forces a guest to select a dish or a wine. I think that every fine dining restaurant in Memphis has it’s hidden gems. Also, as I once told Fredric, there is no true fine dining in Memphis. No one measures up to the standard of service that our parents and grandparents once experienced. I would say that there are only a handful left in the U.S…………and the so called fine dining joints in Mephis are as consistent as the reviews of them in the CA.

Speaking of ethics in business, I happen to know that the fine guys at Equestria cooked an enormous amount of turkeys and sides for the poor and underprivileged for Thanksgiving. A round of applause for them. Not mentioning that is unconcionable.

Fredric,

Interesting. Finally, something we can agree upon. Honesty,a sense of ethics,decency, and fairness in all business, the restaurant business or journalism. Looking at the whole picture and representing it accurately is the right thing to do.

There is enough strife in the world and to allow it to permeate a food and wine blog just doesn’t seem in the spirit of Christmas–or whatever you may celebrate.

Merry Christmas.

Ha! Randal, that’s priceless! Thanks …..

& James, Merry Christmas to you too, and good or great or fine dining wherever you are.